lodessa | In which I talk a lot.

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In which I talk a lot.

So that poll from yesterday wasn't exactly random.

The Bones question was partly trying to see how popular the show was on my flist (or how much recruiting I needed to do), but also a good segue here for me to talk about why I love Bones, and you should give it a shot... or a second try. When I heard about Bones, a procedural with Angel... I was not really at all interested. The first few times I caught bits of season 1, I had a hard time remembering that Booth was not Angel and was in fact a "normal" human being, and FBI agent. The first time I watched a whole episode, I wasn't that in to the crazy case of the week (cannibalism) but I did enjoy the beginnings of UST between Booth/Bones. More than that though, I enjoyed the scenes back at the lab with the secondary characters. They are all totally smart science nerds, but the show didn't stick to that. They are really interesting, human, adorable, and compelling. They were funny, but not in that self deprecating way that makes me not enjoy most comedy. I'll admit though, that this wasn't enough to get me hooked on the show. I might have not started watching it at all, if it weren't for

sophia_helix who showed me the pirate episode, and the more I started catching episodes at her house, the more I wanted to see the next one. I think it helped that the show was having more interpersonal plotline on the surface, including nerd love that didn't follow any of the customs for sidekick romance plotlines. But whatever it was, I became totally hooked. I was going to try and quantify things like interesting and intelligent characters and the balance between humor and drama and the mystery of the week and the character arcs (which exist and work!), but then I realized that the sense of balance and cohesion that makes good tv, can't be explained. So I'm just saying, it grew on me and maybe if you let it... it will grow on you too. It has become the highlight of my TV week and the one thing I really would be upset if got canceled.

The Song of Ice and Fire question was more about pimping and less about asking. I know who reads the series, have for a long time. But I think that all of you should be. I was shocked to find in my poll that someone I generally find to have much the same taste as myself, apparently is the one person not to like these books, who has been exposed. They have everything, from the elements of high fantasy (dragons, prophesies, magic), to the grittiness and psychology of high literature. Martin makes you root for both sides of opposing forces at the same time. He makes you hate a character for his monstrous behavior and then explains the other side and you find yourself respecting and emphasizing with that same character. He gives you strong willed women, some in body and some not, some valiant and some villainous. He gives you a spectrum of religions, some with frightening power and some seemingly inept. He gives you romance and anti-romance and friendship and backstabbing and kin and twisted secrets and a whole world that feels as if it really is three dimensional and has a history longer than our own and not just invented backwards in the shallow space between the book's bindings. It is a world as real as our own, and just as complex and subtle and brazen and crude and sophisticated. This is the series of our time, possibly all time. It is epic like Tolkien but insightful like Dostoyevsky and puzzling like Garcia Marquez and bleeding like Morrison and probably I am overselling it, but I know books are harder to persuade than TV shows. So I will end by telling you how I spent the YEARS between the release of the second and the third book actively thinking about the characters and world the entire time... without fandom or anyone else to feed me back enthusiasm or motivation... I just couldn't get it out of my head.

The Supernatural question was a trick question. Supernatural's very existence offends me. I deleted a lot of people off my flist for talking about it too much a while back. Nothing in it appeals to me. I don't like scary things, I don't like female-less shows, I don't like slash terribly much, and people who try and convince me to watch based on Denny being on it... clearly didn't pay attention to my hating Denny and wanting him to die and get off my show. Occasionally they have guest stars I sort of want to see, but that is not enough to change my distaste for the whole thing. Now, my poll (and common knowledge) shows that people I like and respect seem to be really into this show, but I just can't get over how much it represents everything I hate about TV and fandom. I like a good looking guy as much as the next girl but really... it's got to stop. When I say I dislike slash I belie myself. MY VM OTP is after all... slash. But what I really dislike is the slasher mentality. Cut the girls out because girls are yucky and we hate ourselves and let's have boylovin' probably boylovin' in which one or both of the boys act like girls and maybe we will even dress them up like girls but vaginas are scary and yucky and I hate gross disgusting het. I know... it's not like I'm saying anything new, but the whole thing just brings up all the old issues.

BSG's inclusion wasn't about pimping or bitching. I knew I was going to watch the rest of season 3 last night, so I figured it would be a good way to tie in my reaction/opinions and tie others reactions to my memory of it. So without further preamble

I actually didn't have much of a problem with the plot. It was more the execution that offended me, particularly that horrible, cheesy, looking like the 3rd rock from the sun credits, pan out in the end... and the horrible raping of Hendrix/Dylan. Seriously, I recall

hobviously telling me about Ron D. Moore wanting to have Hendrix playing in the Six/Baltar finale scene in the Opera House on Kobol, but someone thankfully talking him out of it and clearly this was his revenge. And a horrible revenge it was. BSG has always maintained an image of classiness with it's classical style of soundtrack and usually the special effects are, if not perfect, at least not education science video quality.

Conceptually I sort of liked the trial, it was reminiscent of the Aaron Echolls trial but in a less horrible way. I didn't like seeing Lee betray Roslin. I did like that her cancer came back because I disliked the mystical cure ruining her Moses status. Also I was seriously afraid she'd be taking the drugs for the visions and I cannot deal with the breaking down of her character like that since she's the only character I really love on the show. This way she can die during the finale of the show, just as they are about to reach earth.

I also kind of love Gaeta. It was interesting to see him lie on the stand and also it brought home all the stuff about him and Baltar and his total hero worship for Baltar at the beginning of the show and his current rage and disgust and sense of betrayal. I wish that Zarek had been in the section because they really passed up golden opportunities to show the similarities and differences between him and Baltar and to investigate his past, plus he and Roslin have a really great dynamic.

I was sort of iffy about the trial and Lee's earlier shit, but I loved when Baltar was like "but what about MEEEEE" and I am sad that his followers found him and he isn't going to have to fend for himself next season for a while... which I think would be fascinating. Also, Baltar is clearly going to show up with hexagonal tablets next season, to go with his Jesus look, either that or he can be nailed to one.

The cylon reveals worked for me. I like that they are finally moving forward. The only thing is that Tigh clearly can't have been a cylon the whole time, unless the cylons have perfected the art of time travel since they didn't look like people yet when Tigh was fighting the first war with Adama. So he has to have been replaced at some point or they are with the non-sense making.

I am glad next season is supposed to be the last. Recently it's been dragging and I feel like maybe the end in sight with reignite some of that sense of purpose that season 1 had. I am glad about the cylon reveal but want to know what is up with the final five and what have they been doing and why are they not with the first seven and I really hope they start delivering answers. Since the chief is actually a cylon does that make his baby also a halfbreed like Hera? Also will he be reunited with original Sharon now?

The HBO poll was largely just a poll. I wanted to see who was watching the things I've been watching and I wanted recommendations for other HBO shows because, while they are too expensive to get any way other than netflix, they seem to make good tv... and concise. I'm thinking some time in the next few weeks I will be marathoning season 2 of Rome, and as soon as the boy finishes watching Veronica Mars I'll probably be watching Big Love again, and be caught up in time to not be able to see season 2 in real time since I don't have access to HBO. Rome is shiny bloody porn, and I am excited and kind of glad I saved most of the season till now. Big Love is interesting and kind of ridiculously sexy.

So I picked up the first issue of the Buffy comic last week and I enjoyed it, but I am almost tempted to wait and not read until the whole thing is done because it's seriously so little! I want MORE and feel dissatisfied by the limitedness of what fits in one issue. I feel like I only got the teaser that goes before the credits.

At first glance the two seem very similar: Heroine breaks up with boyfriend who she's been holding on to for too long and is finally ready to date exciting guy who has had a crush on her very obviously for quite a while only to find he is now dating someone else... someone very likable.

As I was thinking about it though... I realized that Betty/Henry/Charlie is really more like season 1 and 2 Jim/Pam/Roy. Henry and Charlie are the established relationship with the long history that probably goes back to high school and Betty is the new interesting person.

And I guess that's part of why I prefer the Ugly Betty triangle. There's a reason why Henry wouldn't just break up with Charlie and go out with Betty. In the office it's clear that Jim wants Pam more and they have a longer history and really there is no real reason Jim should still be dating Karen, but Charlie came to New York for Henry and they have a past.

Not to mention that so much more happens in Ugly Betty... every episode has progress or digression, but at least some movement.

So the spin off question... other than being a chance for me to be snide and give overly specific answers? Well it's been on everyone's mind.

I am the opposite of most of fandom, in that, if I could redesign the VM cast Logan would definitely not be in it any more. He's Spiko(fandom cliches of Spike and Draco) and he's taken that role in the show. He takes too much screen time and basically just wallows in emo. He was a good character in season 1 because he was antagonistic but someone Veronica had a connection to. In season 2 he was off with Weevil, again being ally and antagonist... now he's just lame boyfriend or not boyfriend. You can't please the fangirls... if he's domesticated he's a drag and if he's back to being an asshole you are vilifying their precious.

While I'd be perfectly happy to see Veronica Mars canceled and put out of it's misery like it deserves and probably will be, part of me does want some sort of redemption for something so fallen... and probably it wouldn't work out that way but a little part of me hopes.

I am somewhat jaded about the Addison spin-off. Grey's has too many characters and instead of using the spin off to lessen the burden they are just adding more people. Still, the cast for the show looks pretty good and I can easily go for more shiny crack. If it was me though... I'd move Sara Ramirez over and then she and Taye Diggs would eventually SING.

Angel, however, probably set the bar too high for any other spin-off to meet it. It took a beloved show and made something even better... keeping the trademark Joss style and at the same time having a completely different ideology than the original and a whole new flavor.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

But what I really dislike is the slasher mentality. Cut the girls out because girls are yucky and we hate ourselves and let's have boylovin' probably boylovin' in which one or both of the boys act like girls and maybe we will even dress them up like girls but vaginas are scary and yucky and I hate gross disgusting het. I know... it's not like I'm saying anything new, but the whole thing just brings up all the old issues.

I don't think I could love you any more for saying this. I've been trying to put my feelings about slash into words for a long time, and you did it. I am won.

Thank you.

Thanks. I had a lot of help from similar statements others have made, but I think that really is my problem with slashers... female slashers who only want to write about men.

I love this whole entire post and agree with you wholeheartedly (even though I voted for Jim/Pam/Karen), but never more than on this statement:

I don't like slash terribly much, and people who try and convince me to watch based on Denny being on it... clearly didn't pay attention to my hating Denny and wanting him to die and get off my show.

It's like you're inside my mind, birthday twin. INSIDE MY MIND.

Jim/Pam/Karen was actually the one question that had two acceptable answers. I just like Karen more than Charlie.

Funny, I was reading your post and thinking that SAME thing about you being in my brain.

There's been a lot of brain sharing concepts recently... what with my realization that to create Grey's Shonda reaches into the depth of the brains of

hobviously and some horrible little 13 year old girl who writes fic about TRULUV and uses horrible ship names and ships the most boring horrible pairings ever and thus it's bipolar nature exists.

I watched a few episodes of Bones when it first started here, but it was too CSI-ish for my taste. I'm thinking of giving it another try when it starts again, though, because people keep saying that it gets better later on.

Supernatural, I just don't get :)

And re: the Buffy comics - yes, exactly! I don't really have an opinion about it yet because there really wasn't anything in the comic to have an opinion about :)

Yeah, I definitely suggest giving Bones a second chance. Like I said, I wasn't hooked immediately and it's definitely found a better rhythm in season 2.

Yeah. I mean I enjoyed the line about the immortal and haha, buffy is unamerican, but I was just starting to feel like it was starting and it was over. I think this is why I perfer comics when they come in the big graphic novel form.

OMG, yay for long fannish posts. I sense this will be a long, fannish comment.

So I'm just saying, it grew on me and maybe if you let it... it will grow on you too.

Seriously? Huh. I was really excited for Bones, because I have a huge soft spot for chemistry between partners, and I nearly always get sucked into that kind of drama. Mulder/Scully, Elliot/Olivia, etcetera. But I watched the pilot and I was completely unimpressed and bored, and I didn't like the main actress. I believe I downloaded the second episode JIC, but I either FFed through it very quickly or skipped it entirely. This kind of makes me thing I should try it again. What episode(s) would you suggest I watch if I were to give it another go?

I was shocked to find in my poll that someone I generally find to have much the same taste as myself, apparently is the one person not to like these books, who has been exposed

Yeah, I guess that would be me? I tried to revive my interest in fantasy the first summer I was home from college, and I bought the first ASOIAF book along with about five other big fantasy staples that were recommended to me. I did not like any of them, and I would wager that I liked ASOIAF the least of all. (Well, actually, I liked it more than I hated Raphsody.) Plus it just seemed like Martin was ripping off English history to me. But my dislike is probably just because I'm over unsubversive fantasy in general, so I wouldn't read too much into it. I heard they're making an HBO miniseries out of it, so you ought to be able to interest more people in the books that way?

But what I really dislike is the slasher mentality. Cut the girls out because girls are yucky and we hate ourselves and let's have boylovin' probably boylovin' in which one or both of the boys act like girls and maybe we will even dress them up like girls but vaginas are scary and yucky and I hate gross disgusting het.

Yeah, word. But! I don't have many SPN fans on my f'list, but the ones I do have all seem to be cool people and most of them even like Jo, GASP.

It was more the execution that offended me, particularly that horrible, cheesy, looking like the 3rd rock from the sun credits, pan out in the end... and the horrible raping of Hendrix/Dylan.

Yes, this sort of sealed the shittiness for me. But the trial offended me as much as Aaron Echolls's trial, and what bothers me about the reveal of four of the final five cylons is that they were the ones running the Resistance (all the leaders, except for Roslin), and what boggles my mind is that in post-episode interviews, Ron Moore said that this is not significant -- that it has nothing to do with them being cylons -- and it basically fucks me off that they did not even know who the final five were starting at the beginning of this season. Which says to me that they didn't care enough to lay the groundwork, like any good storyteller would. I do enjoy boggling over WTF! or GOTCHA! stuff, and so I have a huge problem with the execution of the reveal.

Really, the only way the show could be redeemed to me at all is if Kara is NOT actually alive, and Lee is imagining her and will continue to imagine her for the rest of the fourth season. I am not interested in any outcome where Kara is divine or anything like that.

Bones was definitely a show it took me a while to get hooked on. I think the episode I stopped "catching it occasionally" and started making sure to see after was "Judas on a Pole" but I missed a lot of the earlier stuff (yay for friend with DVDs he willing to lend me) so I wouldn't say that is a definitive "best" or whatever. I know a lot of people loved the ep in which they went to Vegas. I definitely think that Emily/Bones takes a while to grow on you because she's really closed off (although less so this season), but JoaP is a lot about her backstory so it might help. I would also try a lighter ep (like maybe the Pirate one?) because often when you aren't attached to the characters you don't want to hear about their drama. "Aliens in a Spaceship" for instance is a really good ep but only if you care about the characters.

I can see how if you dislike fantasy it would be hard to like SoIaF. I wouldn't call it "unsubversive" but it is deeply ingrained in genre. I really liked GoT but it wasn't until the second book that I got obsessed, because that's when Martin starts turning around assumptions about characters and stuff. But it's okay that you didn't like it... I wasn't trying to like guilt or criticize. I was just surprised because we generally have such similar taste.

It's really too bad that RDM isn't going to use the fact that they were leading the resistance... that would be such an interesting twist. Especially since we know they are estranged from the first 7 but not why.

But most of all I wish you were right and Lee will just hallucinate her all season like Gaius and Six and Tigh and Ellen and Adama and his ex wife. I think everyone should see their SO in their cracked out brains.

Kara and her "special destiny" makes me want to gag.

I wasn't trying to like guilt or criticize.

Oh, I didn't think you were, no worries. And I actually really used to love fantasy when I was a kid, but I think I've always enjoyed the lighter, subversive stuff or the stuff that's really grounded in our universe, like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, which I adored.

But most of all I wish you were right and Lee will just hallucinate her all season like Gaius and Six and Tigh and Ellen and Adama and his ex wife. I think everyone should see their SO in their cracked out brains.

Especially since (to me, at least) the hallucinations we've seen on the show all seem to be induced by staggering amounts of guilt. Gaius's selfishness resulted in the genocide of the human race, and so Six is part of his PTSD. Caprica!Six fell in love with Gaius and betrayed him. Tigh killed Ellen. And Lee convinced Kara to fly that day, to trust him to keep her safe. So it would be consistent. Not that this show actually does consistent, but I can dream.

Have you read Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials? The primary world is an AU in which John Calvin became Pope instead of Protestantism taking off and various other things are different, but it also goes into ours world and various others and it's a subversive theological piece eventually.

That makes so much sense...
sadly too much sense for the show.

Ha. I was just talking about His Dark Materials with a f'lister last night, because HBO had their First Look at the making of it. Anyway, I started reading it when I got the book. I must have been around twelve, maybe, and I found the subject matter too heavy at the time. So I set it aside. I've always meant to go back and reread it, but then I got ill with fantasy and I have no idea where the book even is, so. Long story short, I haven't.

You know what I have always meant to read? The Discworld books.

sadly too much sense for the show.

I'm glad I was never really that invested in BSG, because it could seriously have broken my heart. It's like 95% of everything I thought was awesome about it turned out to be LIES.

I too have ALWAYS meant to read at least a certain amount of the Discworld books *is shamed*

Yeah I definitely am glad I never gave BSG my heart. I've seen the damage it inflicted on those who did.

It's like 95% of everything I thought was awesome about it turned out to be LIES.

*weeps* I TRIED TO WARN YOU.

He's Spiko(fandom cliches of Spike and Draco)

HA. You know ITA, and I figure that Logan MUST disappear if they pursue VM:FBI, because the point of the reformatting would be to gain new viewers, and the #1 way to fuck that up would be not introducing an all-new romantic relationship for the audience to become invested in. In a way, the shittiness of Logan/Veronica (which I loved with all my heart and soul in S1) is the fault of VM's low ratings; they can't acknowledge their complicated history and the baggage because they don't want to drive away casual viewers who don't know any of it. I'd take no Logan over the shell of Logan we see every week any day.

While I'd be perfectly happy to see Veronica Mars canceled and put out of it's misery like it deserves and probably will be, part of me does want some sort of redemption for something so fallen... and probably it wouldn't work out that way but a little part of me hopes.

I feel you totally on the character development (or lack thereof) of S3, but I've actually enjoyed a lot more of this season's mystery stuff than I did last season. I am unhappy with a lot of the directions they've taken, but I still enjoy myself when I watch the show, and I will be sorry to see it go.

I'd move Sara Ramirez over and then she and Taye Diggs would eventually SING.

HA, FTW!

You've hit the nail on the head with the Logan thing. It actually might be good to kill him to ensure no one is like "maybe Logan will come back".

I think I will be happier with season 3 in rewatch and I admit that my frustration is more with her missing main cast friends absence and less with the mysteries, both of which were much better wrapped up than previous ones. The only mystery gripe I have is their failure to make the rape thing resonate with Veronica's past experience (probably due to their trying not to alienate new viewers). When I heard about the rape plotline i assumed that the intent was to create that resonance so yeah I was disappointed by that. But if instead of going over trust in V/L's relationship every episode we had seen more Mac, Wallace, and Weevil I think the season would actually have been good. Like really good... like better.

I mean why else have two people with amazing professional singing voices on your show(s)? (Oh Taye Diggs please sing to me and make me feel better about life with your pretty pretty voice)

Of course this makes me think of the possibility of a MUSICIAL TV SERIES

which kills me dead

It actually might be good to kill him to ensure no one is like "maybe Logan will come back".

I think that could generate a lot of drama, and I think it's a really interesting idea, and one that I totally support. Another f'lister of mine suggested that Logan could land in jail and that Veronica could have helped put him there, and so when he gets out he'd be looking to exact some sort of revenge (although nothing lame of the daytime soap variety, I hope), which I thought was another possibility that's very noir.

I admit that my frustration is more with her missing main cast friends absence

Oh, yeah. I cannot even believe how small Wallace's role has been this season. Really, if I had my way, Jason Dohring's # of episode orders would be switched with Percy Dagg's.

When I heard about the rape plotline I assumed that the intent was to create that resonance so yeah I was disappointed by that.

Yes, definitely. You are preaching to the choir.

a MUSICIAL TV SERIES

I must confess that this is my idea of TORTURE OMG, but hee.

I like the idea of Veronica putting Logan in jail (the idea was brought up in season 1 after all).

Also I think we saw more of Mac BEFORE they made her a main cast member.

The musical TV Series would only work for me if it didn't take itself too seriously. Also it really would work better as more of a mini-series than show. Also I am just too amused by myself clearly.

Also I think we saw more of Mac BEFORE they made her a main cast member.

I think you are right. It almost makes me want to tabulate everyone's screentime to have the real, live stats in front of me, only I think that in the end that would probably be just a huge waste of my own time.

The boyfriend has been watching seasons 1 and 2 and I am seriously pretty sure it's the case.

Also for mere episode counts on Mac:

4 eps in season 1
10 eps in season 2
5 eps so far in season 3

so yeah...

Of course this makes me think of the possibility of a MUSICIAL TV SERIES
Didn't they already do that with Cop Rock? I've never seen it, but...

I have not heard of this "Cop Rock"

Really? It's legendary! Hell, VM even made reference to it with Leo. Remember when he told her he was in a band? "A cop that rocks?"

It was a Steven Bochco series (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098772/) that didn't last very long because it was expensive (as a musical every week tends to be) and the ratings sucked. I've never seen it myself, but it sounds...well, kind of ridiculous but intriguing.

Huh, I actually didn't realize it came out in 1990. I thought it was older than that.

Yeah, I think it might be more possible now than it was then because TV budgets have gone way up and musicals are fairly "in".

But yeah, musicals are a big things to try and do every week... I am guessing it might go better in the HBO format of limited episodes, at least for starters.

You know, I agree with you about this - I like a good looking guy as much as the next girl but really... it's got to stop. When I say I dislike slash I belie myself. MY VM OTP is after all... slash. But what I really dislike is the slasher mentality. Cut the girls out because girls are yucky and we hate ourselves and let's have boylovin' probably boylovin' in which one or both of the boys act like girls and maybe we will even dress them up like girls but vaginas are scary and yucky and I hate gross disgusting het. I know... it's not like I'm saying anything new, but the whole thing just brings up all the old issues. - I couldn't agree more. I actually enjoy slash sometimes, but the "yuck het" offends me. My strong liking of supernatural is based not on the looks of the protagonists and the idea of spn-slash is distasteful to me - but I enjoy a bit of a fright now and again, and empathise with Older-Sibling-Protecting-Younger. Also, I like the Polish fandom and enjoy writing in the verse. But I can totally get why you would dislike the show.

I agree with you about Veronica Mars. I am somewhat torn about Logan - I sort of can't imagine VM without him, but I'd like him to actually be a character for a change. He's ruined in season three :( I want good season 4 for Veronica or none at all.

As to Grey's spin-off I'm ambigous, not sure if I'm glad or indifferent or unhappy about it. Addison ♥ in any case.

I am hoping to marathon Buffy and Angel during the summer. I feel sort of out of the loop never having seen either of them.

As to BSG? I have just seen 3x18 and am looking forward to watching the next two episodes (torn between watching them now and thinking about the fact that I do need more than five hours of sleep *and* should study for tomorrow's descriptive grammar) even though the second half of the season 3 just doesn't do it for me like the first did (the first part of the season three is sort of my favourite of the series so far). Thus I am not reading your note on that yet. Will do so after I've seen the finale.

::hugs:: I love to read your thoughts about those shows because really? I usually agree with your opinions or end up convinced by your argumentation ;) I sort of think I'll be much more critical about SPN now that I've given it more thought.

Why is Ugly Betty and Big Love worth watching? I'm looking for shows to watch during the summer ;)

My strong liking of supernatural is based not on the looks of the protagonists and the idea of spn-slash is distasteful to me - but I enjoy a bit of a fright now and again, and empathise with Older-Sibling-Protecting-Younger

See I get all the Older Sibling Protecting Younger I need from Firefly/Serenity, which has the best instance of that ever and includes awesome women and great dialog and interesting world building.

Honestly, I feel like we've already sacrificed too much screen time to Logan and not had him do anything but emo in his hotel suite.

caitiedidit is right that the show writers are unwilling to use their interesting past because they are afraid of alienating new viewers and so they will never do anything interesting with Logan again. I feel justified in this because he was part of my OTP too... so it's not just like I am trying to clear the way for the pairing I want or something.

I feel the Grey's spin-off can do very little harm. If it works then yay. If not then Addison comes back to Grey's and maybe hooks up with Alex. No big loss either way.

I totally suggest watching Angel and Buffy. It's a lot of TV but it is awesome TV. I suggest watching like 3 seasons at a time and then taking breaks of other things though, because otherwise you'll burn out because it's just a LOT of tv (252 episodes?). Also you'll enjoy seeing Alyson Hannigan (Trina) and Charisma Carpenter (Kendall) a lot. And yes, it is sort of a fandom standard.... for good reason.

I'm glad you find me so interesting to read, because I love babbling about these things.

Ugly Betty is a totally cute and perky but at the same time strangely progressive and a subversive show. Betty's family is quirky but totally loving and the whole show ends up being heartwarming and about people's capacity for change and good, even though the setting is one based on the opposite of that. It's probably the most advanced show in terms of dealing with non-hetero sexuality in a way that doesn't seen contrived or preachy. Betty is lovable, her family is too, her boss is a spoiled rich playboy who actually manages to be interesting and well rounded. It has all these big stereotypes but it uses them in new and fun ways, and most of all it doesn't take itself too seriously.

Big Love is about polygamous mormons. It's centered on Bill and his three wives and kids, who seem to mean well with the whole thing, but also shows the more obviously corrupt commune that his parents and that of his second wife live on. There's a large cast of wonderful realistic characters, really dealing both with normal life problems and the additional ones that an alternative lifestyle creates. I think it does a nice job of not presenting the whole this as a horrible bad thing or conversely glorifying it. It's just sort of an exploration. The eldest daughter is played by Amanda Siegfried (Lilly Kane) and she's forged a friendship with a regular mormon girl who is played by Tina Majorino (Mac) and the best friend the brother is played by Kyle Gahllner (Cassidy/Beaver) and both friendships possibly have romantic or sexual overtones if you choose to read it that way. Bill's different relationships with all of his wives is really interesting (and yes it's HBO so there's a lot of sex scenes) and all in all the polygamy sometimes is the focus and sometimes is just a framework for examining human nature and people in general.

Haha, I obviously watched the finale before going to sleep. I'm glad to hear you like Gaeta, too! Actually, I am not really angry about almost anything in the finale, except for the final credits. Kara's reappearance was kind of predictable (I never thought she wouldn't return) and it would be awesome if she were Lee's hallucination.

Jesus!look - so true, so fascinating where they will take it.

I also think it's good it's the final season. It could do the series good. I have invested a lot of my feelings in BSG and I am not really disappointed, actually ;) The Cylon reveals were surprising enough for me to have me slack-jawed and not paying that much attention to details that could have been better, frankly.

Kara's reappearance was kind of predictable (I never thought she wouldn't return) and it would be awesome if she were Lee's hallucination.

My thoughts exactly.

I feel like I've been watching too much TV though because the minute people started hearing music other couldn't hear I had pretty much guessed that it was a sign that they were cylons. Still it's an interesting assortment of people and I like that there's another half cylon baby.

I've only seen a few clips of Bones, and it didn't particularly draw me in. But perhaps I'll give it a closer look someday. :)

As for Supernatural, I completely understand not liking it. I wasn't too crazy about the show when I first started watching (though I love it now, as I'm sure you know). ;) For me, the appeal of Sam/Dean is less about the slash (which I'll admit I am attracted to), but more about their intense/damaged/loving relationship. While sometimes I bemoan the lack of strong female characters on SPN (or *any* other characters, for that matter), honestly the way it's set up, I can't imagine any other person coming between their relationship (be it portrayed as brotherly or otherwise). And really, that's part of what I love about the show. I'm drawn to their chemistry, and broken-ness, and obvious need for each other.

And I started rambling there. Basically, I see your point, and there are definitely parts of the SPN fandom that are just all about pairing up the pretty boys, but I think there's more to it than that for a lot of people. *shrugs* To each her own. :D (Oh, and I quite like het in other fandoms, too.)

I agree about Logan, though. I loved him in S1 and S2, but all he's done this year is angst and emo. I still think he's an interesting character that could be well-used if RT were smart about it, but clearly he's not handling things so well at the moment. It makes me sad how little I care if VM gets renewed. I would be ecstatic if it could somehow be redeemed, but I don't have much hope. :/

I definitely suggest Bones... possibly a good summer hiatus activity?

While sometimes I bemoan the lack of strong female characters on SPN (or *any* other characters, for that matter), honestly the way it's set up, I can't imagine any other person coming between their relationship (be it portrayed as brotherly or otherwise). And really, that's part of what I love about the show. I'm drawn to their chemistry, and broken-ness, and obvious need for each other.

I really love the whole broken, needing each other thing in general, but the whole setup needing to really be femaleless is sort of what indicates to me that I will never be able to get into this show sadly. So it's like in order to interest me by having female characters the show would have to destroy the thing that is good about it. I just don't think it will ever be the show for me.

And I didn't mean to imply that everyone who likes supernatural is just into pretty boys, but merely that it seems to be a hotbed of that because of the setup. And I mean, I do like slash sometimes...I just feel like Supernatural is like a beacon for all the screwed up women afraid and disgusted by their own gender because of the male-centric setup.

I think all of us who are able to see what's happening at all clearly feel the same way about VM.

I'd move Sara Ramirez over and then she and Taye Diggs would eventually SING.

they do a medley or Rent and Spamalot tunes. *cackles*

Are you mocking my awesome idea tash?

NEVER!
:P

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