(no subject)

[lodessa]

Yesterday we learned that my flist would prefer to live in Dorne, primarily because they are female and think gender issues would be better there than elsewhere. Winterfell was the second most popular choice. Riverrun, King's Landing, and Casterly Rock tied for 3rd. Highgarden, The Vale, and Oldtown each had one person wanting to live there.

Almost none of you have watched Babylon 5 which is bad.

And almost all of you picked Zora Neale Huston over Richard Wright, demonstrating I am right to have you as my friends.


[Poll #1109336]

Comments

[caitiedidit.livejournal.com]

It's always nice when a show goes out with a bang, but ultimately I'd rather have seven seasons of varying quality than just one season of ridiculously awesome material. I can always stop watching if things really get to sucking!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

On your second question : I'm Jewish, and French, that is to say of a countrie which actually holds illegal to classify people by white / black / asian / etc. semantics. We don't use "race" without those quotation marks round those parts, so I already had to get used to the idea that it actually had some use for antiracism to identify people by their skin colour & phenotype. I'm still not entirely happy with it, but I understand it's sometimes useful thinking.

Chronologically, the first time I pass a quizz / test thing on the internet and they asked me my "race". I scanned the list and there were plenty of things, and of course none of them were "Jewish", so I frowned and eventually clicked on "Other".
So latter on, there was a lot of racism discussions in the HP fandom, and I participated a bit to some, and generally learned lots of concept, including that of white priviledge, and a little pamphlet saying that white people should own up to the fact that they have a "race". Because doing otherwise is considering white as default. And I see that this is true, when I list the things I identify as (as I do on my profile page) I don't say I'm white. I don't identify as white. Nobody can go and tell me what I should identify with!! But then again, if I had been dark-skinned or Asian or whatever, would have I identified as a Person of Colour? Yes, definitly. Which I guess does mean I see white as default. Hello, me own skanky race issues.
However, I'm still not happy with the fact of using "races" as if they were, you know, actual human races, so that still stops me. Do I, being Jewish, still enjoy White priviledge. Of course I do! I've never in my whole life been called an "immigrants" with the whole insidious racism that go with it despite the fact I'm as 3rd generation as your average Maghrebin youth of the Parisian Suburbs. I quite enjoy that priviledge. Do I belong to the race of the White? Errr... no. I'm Jewish. I'm Female. I'm Bisexual. All of those are checkboxed. Not White.

Then again for Jews as a whole... there are Black Jews, and probably even a few Asian Jews, and a bunch of Sephardic and Mizraic Jews who look as dark skinned as Arabs too (genetically, Israelians and Palestinians aren't exactly different, you know >_>;;). That also should be taken in consideration if one ever want to put "Jews" as a whole in a racial box.

That was my explanation of the "sort of" ^^

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

If a show really goes downhill, I can stop watching and just believe some parts to be non-canon. But if the show is cancelled before all the awesome is out, it can be very unpleasant.

It was a difficult question about the books, because I can read books for the writing, but ultimately, I need everything to be at least passable to enjoy a read.

When I think about Jewish people, I usually think about three things - Polish Jews, Israel (which participates in EuroVision!) and Jews in other countries, in that order. I don't really think about it in Caucasian or not terms, they seem to be in the same cultural/historical background, or at least a similar one to mine, to a point of course. Then I consider the whole racism angle, so that kind of gives Jews a free pass on the Caucasian thing, because they were oppressed and not oppressors, and that's kind of what white means to me sometimes -_-

Going at it from another angle, if I were to think "is a Jew white/Caucasian?" I'd answer yes, but asked to think of a Caucasian person, I would think of someone, well, Germanic.

::shiver:: I really don't feel very comfortable talking about it, because I am sort of afraid to come off as racist due to not knowing some collocations and so on in English - it's like religion, far easier to discuss in my mother tongue, where I know exactly what sort of shade and scope each word has.

On an unrelated note, I just finished re-watching Buffy season 7 and cried myself silly over it...

[spectralbovine.livejournal.com]

I can't, though! And it was a tough choice because, well, the "canceled before its time" has that extra oomph factor that makes you love it that much more, if only because you WISH it had gone on longer, but when a show goes on too long, you're sort of left with a bad taste in your mouth, like your love has to be tempered. Yet, it's not like I would have wanted The X-Files or Buffy to have lasted only a couple seasons. That would be just stupid and awful!

[spectralbovine.livejournal.com]

At first, I thought you were talking about bran. Like, the grain.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

(of course I mean most Jews here, because, well, there are non-white Poles. But most Poles are white. Though not "ghastly white" as an article I've once read in a British paper claimed -_-)

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

What about like 2 or 3 seasons of awesome versus 10 seasons the last 3 of which sucked most of the time?

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I know. It was a tough choice for a reason.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Then I consider the whole racism angle, so that kind of gives Jews a free pass on the Caucasian thing, because they were oppressed and not oppressors
If we do that with all oppressed people there's a lot of non White whites out there. The only difference is that Jews have been systematically oppressed nearly everywhere. Are Irish White? (they were considered as Black a while ago) Are Eastern Europeans? (not always well treated in the US circa end of 19th) Are Portuguese and Italians where and when they were newly immigrant groups?

[hobviously.livejournal.com]

I'm white, and I benefit from white privilege because I don't look like any particular ethnicity unless you're looking hard, but I'm not part of White America; when people talk about the white people and the white agenda, I'm generally not included in it. Hence sort of.

I love Dexter the most but keep voting for HIMYM because that was my initial suggestion and by beck I'm sticking with it.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you took the time for it.

I'm Jewish myself, but it is not something that anyone would know just by looking at me. I'm blue eyed and pink skinned and look just about as white as white can be (well I guess except for the textured nature of my hair). I always think about clicking that other box, but I'm sort of ambivalent about the idea of Jewishness as a race or race at all.

Yet for me "white" has almost become shorthand for "nothing of interest in your genetic background" because if I was part black I'd consider myself black probably... even if I was 3/4 white. It's weird and insidious and yet I do think of whiteness as a baseline in some ways.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I have the problem of not being able to forget or not watch the bad parts.

I came to the same conclusion about the books though, ultimately the other options would drive me too nuts to enjoy.

Then I consider the whole racism angle, so that kind of gives Jews a free pass on the Caucasian thing, because they were oppressed and not oppressors, and that's kind of what white means to me sometimes

Yes! This is totally something I think sometimes.

But then I think about the racism that the Irish, Italian, and yes the Polish experienced immigrating to America and wonder if there's anyone who really hasn't been oppressed.

If it helps, I always feel like you express yourself in English better than most people whose native language it is.





I'm going to cry so hard when I rewatch the Angel finale with Jeremy.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

Nope. Bran Stark, the fictional character.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

*nods* Makes perfect sense. I'm pretty pale myself, and I've got clear eyes, so only my hair show my sephardism (is that a word? XD) but my mother looks pretty dark and has been thought Arab a couple of times (of course she grew up in Algeria...)

I tend to think as "Jewishness" as first a culture, then a religion (if one is religious), and as a race only for people who are racist.

I think I'm going to post about this on my journal, because I always wanted to so now seems a good time. Do you mind if I link back to your journal? (given how informal this poll is ^^)

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

That makes sense to me, guy. I had to go with sort of also. Because it's not the same as being plain "white (non hispanic)" but it is not the same as being "not white"


Never try to get an Aries to change her mind.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

The only difference is that Jews have been systematically oppressed nearly everywhere

On race basis, or so it seems to me, rather than politically, which could be true about at least some of the other groups. Also, this totally has to do with personal guilt, because I come from a country which only ever had real racism against Jews, (Poland) and I happen to know antisemitic people (but only very few, it's not very bad here nowadays...) Unfortunately, I am related to two of them :/

So it's not about actual, well, classification? More about what I would associate on first thought.

You make a very good point of course.

When I think of "white/Caucasian" the prototypical image is of a blue-eyed blonde man. It's kind of derogatory, too...

Are Irish White? (they were considered as Black a while ago)

My mind boggles, I feel sort of stupid and want to curl up and not think about how I dislike the world sometimes. Funny I'm reading The Color Purple today, apparently once I start reading on some issue it will start cropping up all around me...

Also, yay for your icon.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

When I think of "white/Caucasian" the prototypical image is of a blue-eyed blonde man. It's kind of derogatory, too...

It is sort of a negative for me too.

[silver-fic.livejournal.com]

Torchwood and Dexter are tied ^__^ Hopefully they stay in the lead. (or How I Met Your Mother)

[hobviously.livejournal.com]

It'd be interesting to have separate polls for gentiles and Jews, and see if many of THEM think we're definitely white while we don't ourselves believe that.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

Yeah. My brother and I both look very "All-American" and my sister looks more Slavic than anything else. Our hair is really the only indicator.

Me too. I tend to think of being Jewish as similar in status to my being American. Because it's definitely something that is inescapable but it's a lot more subjective in its effects than I would consider "race".

Of course, feel free to. Generally speaking, anything that is not friends locked is free game.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

I try to block them out afterwards, usually. My strategy ;)

anyone who really hasn't been oppressed.

Everyone has women in their family tree...

Thank you for the compliment! I try :)

I know! A couple of weeks ago I was a bit emotional, watched NFA promo and started crying.

Wesley ;( Anya ;(

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I was just looking at my results and thinking "almost everyone who didn't say plain yes is jewish in some way or another."

A follow up poll is a good idea though.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I suspect possibly you are more accurate with your diction because you consciously choose it as opposed to the sloppiness of native speakers? Either way it i really impresses me.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I guess my point was that classifications like these are not objective at all, and are really subject to change in time and depending on context.

I'm related to some not funky people as well, so I sympathize ^^

♥ Tori Amos

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

Which I can only concur (to? with? ::has a dead brain::)

Tori and Firefly, huh? ;)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I'm all about the crazy ladies who kick ass!

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

Also ASOIAF... and Buffy.

Otherwise known as you both like "basically everything that is awesome", to quote Kelly from the US Office.

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

You know all the coolest people ;) ♥

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I try and have awesome friends. And clearly sometimes I succeed (like with you!)

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

:D

[hamsterwoman]

Heh, your f-list seems pretty unanimous on Bran and Jaime's fates! :)

On the Jewish thing -- I'm one of those who went with "sort of" -- but mostly because of the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews (well, and Ethiopian Jews, I guess, though that's a more clearcut case of non-whiteness, I'd say). If the poll limited it to Ashkenazi Jews, I would've probably gone with white/Caucasian (because white =/= WASP necessarily).

To add to the "my Jewishness, let me show you it" comments :) -- I *do* actually look fairly Jewish -- dark wavy hair, dark eyes, facial features maybe not terribly pronounced but definitely consistent with the "Jewish" look. But I guess I look enough like a lot of other things, too, that people mostly seem to default to those in assumption, depending on the circumstances. When I was taking Italian in high school and would go places with the Italian class/club, everybody always assumed I was of Italian descent (amusingly enough, the only girl in the class/club who *was* in fact of Italian descent was the blue-eyed blonde with fair skin). When I was hanging out at the INS, getting immigration paperwork for B (who is Israeli), EVERYBODY tried to speak to me in Spanish. My grandmother and my mother (who is blonde...) get that all the time, too. But it always comes as a surprise to me when I realize people are assuming I'm something other than Jewish.

I'm curious now whether the white / sort of divide is bimodal depending on whether the person answering was herself Jewish or not. Seems like all the people who've identified themselves as Jewish in the comments voted 'sort of' (that I could tell). If it is bimodal, I wonder if that means anything.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

GRRM is a cruel master obviously.

5 (possibly 6) of the 7 people to say "sort of" on that question do indeed identify as Jewish. It seems to me to indicate that we see ourselves as more "different" than gentiles do?

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I guess I was really only thinking of European Jews when I said I thought they were "white" but I definitely think of Jewish people with European backgrounds as NOT being "persons of color" - historically, of course, a lot of very nasty people tried to say that European Jews and Gentiles WERE different races, but I feel like that's a construct that was basically used for very pernicious ends and therefore makes it somewhat untenable. Of course if we're talking about Ethiopian Jews or Indian Jews, then I'd have to say, yes, they are "persons of color." (I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can be oppressed and persecuted without being racially different from the people who are oppressing and persecuting you, and that race is an ill-defined and usually not very useful tool.)

OK, now onto ASOIAF - I think Bran will stay crippled because GRRM isn't about to ease up on us by having him recover :P And Jaime is, I fear, toast - just the sheer number of people who want to kill him (Dany; UnCat; everyone at Riverrun; any remaining Starks out there; the Dornishmen probably; and now Brienne too, I think has sworn to kill him) probably guarantees his not surviving the last book. However, since that last book will most likely come out in 2025, at least he'll be "alive" until then :D (we hope!)

[syderia]

Because I just read the comments...

I voted "sort of" on the "are Jewish white?" question and I'm not Jewish myself.

Why did I answered that?
First, I don't like talking about "races" for white/black/hispanic and so on people. Maybe it comes from being French, where such categorizations are more than frowned upon. Besides, biologically, there's only one human "race" and it encompasses everyone.
That being said, even if we talk about phenotypes instead of "races", being Jewish isn't a phenotype for me, it's a religion and a culture. So I answered "sort of", because there are Jews in many part of the world, and not all of them are of Caucasian type.

[nentari.livejournal.com]

Regarding the second question, it's a bit tricky for me to answer that considering how mixed the Portuguese people is. To all effects we're white, as opposed to Latino, but in reality everybody, even the idiotic "white supremacists" that have been filling the news recently, has a mixed heritage of Roman, Celtic, Black, Arabian and Jewish blood - and several other things thrown in the middle, though these are the strongest, historically. Because of that, we aren't required to put down our race on forms and things like that because it's really impossible to be certain. Even I, a blue-eyed readhead, cannot say for sure exactly where I'd fit in, as I'm certain I'm all of the things stated above.

[hella-em.livejournal.com]

don't Jews come in all colors?

we've all heard the debate that it's not a race it's a religion/culture. so in that case i would say check the box that is your race/color/whatever. but if you're from the school that believes Jewish is a race, well then, it's "other" for you!

i was watching the shiny box with moving pictures (it rarely happens anymore, no tv i nmy apt) and it inspired me to buy zoolander.

my dad LOVES Deadwood. I watched a few episodes, but i htink i'd have to start at the beginning. i think he thins the swearing is funny. my dad is funny like that.

can't wait to see you, i'll be mia possibly til i leave for sac. but have a jew-tastic christmas!!! and let me know about new years.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

There are. I was mainly talking about the Ashkenazi Jews rather than Sephardic or Ethiopian Jews. It was mainly a question of, like you said, whether you consider it as race or not.

I love Zoolander so much!

Yay for Em! I think we are probably going to have a quiet New Years at home (Jeremy is likely to have to work at 5AM on the 1st) but we need to make plans to hang out while you are up.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

It's a tricky question in general. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone whose heritage isn't mixed somewhere down the line.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

I really wish the US wasn't so big on racial classifications.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

you can be oppressed and persecuted without being racially different from the people who are oppressing and persecuting you, and that race is an ill-defined and usually not very useful tool.

I cannot argue with that at all.



Indeed, basically the ASOIAF answers are "GRRM has no mercy".

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

They all seem to be pretty popular.

[hella-em.livejournal.com]

ah, i see. then you've lost me, as most of my jewknowledge (those words do not combine easily) has escaped - actually, most things have. i need to recharge. it's all very interesting to me though, other than Islam I don't think I've heard of another religion that people identify more as a race than religion or even culture.

i know you do, i think this love stems from that very fun night we two plus **chel and shoni had a few years back at your mom's. it's such a great fall asleep to movie - you know what's gonna happen, so you can just relax...ha. i got my sis a "frankie says relax...don't do it" shirt for christmas. i almost included a copy of zoolander with it.

aw, well, it'll be sad not to have you at Sean's with us, but I totally understand. we may be having a little get together on friday too for Mario's birthday if you're free, i can keep you posted.

once i figure out when and if Sean and i are going to santa cruz, i can make plans - i think Dano said the 2nd was best for her - but i can't remember...so whenever i'm there to see her is when i can come see you too. my vacation is gonna be busy - man, i need to relax though! i volunteered to house sit for my dad so really, it's my fault for volunteering to stay in folsom every other night so the kitty and doggie and fishies are fed and happy.

i'll give you a call soon.

[lodessa.livejournal.com]

It's the whole "chosen people" thing I think... and well the fact that back in the day they were a nation of monotheists while everyone else was still worshiping idols and such.

Definitely keep me posted about Friday. It may or may not be feasible (boyfriend is working crazy schedule) and I will look forward to hearing from you.