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lodessaAfter bemoaning the lack of a Song of Ice and Fire (George RR Martin) fandom in ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
queenofthorns' journal, I thought maybe I should post more about it so as not to be the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak.
Jon Snow
The series starts with execution and the discovery of direwolf pups. Ned Stark (or I might say more signifigantly: The Stark Family) doesn't have a headsman and this is stated to be symbolic of the importance of taking full responsiblity for one's decisions. If you are going to sentence someone to death, you should also deliver that death. Jon Snow admires his father. Ned Stark is all that is good is basically what we are told by him in this chapter. So they find the direwolves. Initially they find 5, enough for all the legitimate children but not for Jon. So there it is, Ned Stark can be as noble as he wants but he cannot/will not erase the lack of equality. Jon Snow is not a Stark. However, they find a 6th direwolf, one that is white like the snow Jon is named after instead of grey like the normal direwolves. So Jon symbolically is still a direwolf (the Stark emblem), even though he is passed over and ignored initially. His choice of naming his wolf "Ghost" is of course appropriate to the place he holds in the family and the world. Jon is made invisable by his bastard birth. When the royal court comes to Winterfell, the family essentially pretends he doesn't exist. He is also a reminder of Ned's past transgression, or (if he is not Ned's bastard at all but instead the child of Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Trgaryen asqueenofthorns suggested) a reminder of Ned's dead sister, a sort of corporeal ghost, and also a leftover from the conflict and revolution sparked by their passion. Also, as a Man of the Night's Watch, he is a shadow protector of the kingdom, not seen or remembered by the majority of the kingdom. In some ways Jon remains more a Stark than his half siblings, who leave the north while Jon stays and defends it. The meaning of "Starkdom" is tied to the North in a way that some of the other families are not tied to their locations, Lannisters are still at home in King's Landing instead of Castely Rock for instance. Starks, like snow and other things of the north, melt and dissolve into nothing when you take them out of the right climate. Regardless, although he is not a legitimate member of the family, Jon represents what Starks/the North seemingly is supposed to stand for. He is stoic, heroic... okay that was a bad rhyme but you get my meaning. I know some people who don't care for Jon, finding him boring in his goodness, but I love him. He's just resentful and angst ridden enough to not be smackable, but he handles it like a man and doesn't go all emo on us, and his burdens aren't so impossibly hard that he's a super hero type. Jon is my favorite of Ned Stark's children, probably because his lack of Stark status makes him more accessible in many ways. Perhaps Jon should be a prince, King of the North, but he is not and we love him the better for it.
Robb Stark
Robb Stark is the golden boy of the series, even though technically vile Joffery is the one who supposedly looks it. I always imagined Robb, contrary to the actual description of him as dark haired, a golden godlike boy like Ralph in Lord of the Flies. While Jon is prematurely knowing, Ralph is much more boyish. He is virtuous like his half brother, believes in the right things and does the best he knows how, but he is a boy. This makes sense since he's a lordling. It also makes sense because he is strongly influenced by his mother's heritage. Caitlyn is a Tully and that's different than being a Stark. The Tullys live by the water in the middle of the kingdom where it's neither to hot nor too cold, they are gracious and lively, in some ways more the opposite of Stark than the Dornish in the South, whose climate is rought like the Stark's though in a different way. It is important to note that Robb is crowned King of the North in Riverrun, his mother's homeland, and not in the north proper at Winterfell. Things are not so heavy in Riverrun as in Winterfell, they are not responsible for any border of Westernos. Regardless, Robb is good but he doesn't see some things and expects the rest of the world to be good too. Not to lay all this on his mother though, Ned Stark also died because of his goodness and faith. So it isn't suprising that Robb would think to marry for love and expect everyone else to respect that. He smiles and apologizes and expects that the Freys will act how he would in their position, partly because he is young, and partly because he is so good hearted that he doesn't recognize the potential for evil in others. Robb's death hit me hard, possibly hardest of any in the series. He was so young and beautiful and good and I had planned for him to marry Dany and thus make it possible for both the Starks and Targaryens to win. At the same time, Robb is not a particularly interesting character, as far as I remember we never get a chapter from his perspective even.
Sansa Stark
In A Game of Thrones, Sansa is probably the most annoying character in the entire book. I hated her a lot. She's shallow and stupid and she is responsible for her father's death at least partly. Her naming her wolf "Lady" sort of describes exactly how much she lacked originality. She was taken in by the outward appearance of the Lannisters and their golden image. However, she has developed more than any of the other Stark children and now she is my favorite of the legitable Starks. It is too bad she is unlikely to live considering that her wolf was killed in book 1. Of course, the old Sansa is dead in a sense. She has lost her identity for the most part becoming Alayne Stone, the bastard daughter of Petyr Baelish who has always been in love with her mother. It is interesting to note that when I actually start to like Sansa she becomes a bastard child, losing her name and becoming her environment... like Jon. Sansa became sympathetic when she started to realize the true nature of the Lannisters, when Joffrey humiliated her, when she began to be nicer to those she had scorned. When her story really becomes most compelling though, at least for me, is when she falls into the trap of Petyr. Sansa looks like her mother, and we imagine that probably much of her idealism about court and princes is reminiscent of what Caitlyn might have been like as a girl. The thing with Petyr is comflicting because he is psychotic and ruthless and wants to have Sansa in a sexual sense, but he also is the one person who can be trusted to protect her from the rest of the dangers she faces. Petyr's lust is all the more disturbing because, while half the time he essentially sees her as Caitlyn, the other half he sort of fantasizes that Sansa is he and Caitlyn's daughter. Of course Petyr's desire for Caitlyn was always borderline incestuous because he was her foster brother. I have to say that I like Sansa as Alayne though, she's competant and useful. I have to attribute at least past of that to the fact that the Eyrie is in th North. As I discussed with Jon, Stark power is bound to a geographic location and we can see that by how terribly wrong things go for Sansa when she goes south to King's Landing, and the way her life becomes more bearable when she goes North again. Considering that Arya, also is experimenting with identity, I think that whether being a Stark is an external of internal thing is very important. Possibly it also shows the difference in the two girls nature in the way that Sansa becomes Alayne but Arya can never really stop being Arya. Regardless, from the looks of things as of Feast for Crows, it seems that Alayne is soon to become Sansa again, and I hope she survives it, although it seems unlikely.
queenofthorns' journal, I thought maybe I should post more about it so as not to be the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak.Jon Snow
The series starts with execution and the discovery of direwolf pups. Ned Stark (or I might say more signifigantly: The Stark Family) doesn't have a headsman and this is stated to be symbolic of the importance of taking full responsiblity for one's decisions. If you are going to sentence someone to death, you should also deliver that death. Jon Snow admires his father. Ned Stark is all that is good is basically what we are told by him in this chapter. So they find the direwolves. Initially they find 5, enough for all the legitimate children but not for Jon. So there it is, Ned Stark can be as noble as he wants but he cannot/will not erase the lack of equality. Jon Snow is not a Stark. However, they find a 6th direwolf, one that is white like the snow Jon is named after instead of grey like the normal direwolves. So Jon symbolically is still a direwolf (the Stark emblem), even though he is passed over and ignored initially. His choice of naming his wolf "Ghost" is of course appropriate to the place he holds in the family and the world. Jon is made invisable by his bastard birth. When the royal court comes to Winterfell, the family essentially pretends he doesn't exist. He is also a reminder of Ned's past transgression, or (if he is not Ned's bastard at all but instead the child of Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Trgaryen as
queenofthorns suggested) a reminder of Ned's dead sister, a sort of corporeal ghost, and also a leftover from the conflict and revolution sparked by their passion. Also, as a Man of the Night's Watch, he is a shadow protector of the kingdom, not seen or remembered by the majority of the kingdom. In some ways Jon remains more a Stark than his half siblings, who leave the north while Jon stays and defends it. The meaning of "Starkdom" is tied to the North in a way that some of the other families are not tied to their locations, Lannisters are still at home in King's Landing instead of Castely Rock for instance. Starks, like snow and other things of the north, melt and dissolve into nothing when you take them out of the right climate. Regardless, although he is not a legitimate member of the family, Jon represents what Starks/the North seemingly is supposed to stand for. He is stoic, heroic... okay that was a bad rhyme but you get my meaning. I know some people who don't care for Jon, finding him boring in his goodness, but I love him. He's just resentful and angst ridden enough to not be smackable, but he handles it like a man and doesn't go all emo on us, and his burdens aren't so impossibly hard that he's a super hero type. Jon is my favorite of Ned Stark's children, probably because his lack of Stark status makes him more accessible in many ways. Perhaps Jon should be a prince, King of the North, but he is not and we love him the better for it.Robb Stark
Robb Stark is the golden boy of the series, even though technically vile Joffery is the one who supposedly looks it. I always imagined Robb, contrary to the actual description of him as dark haired, a golden godlike boy like Ralph in Lord of the Flies. While Jon is prematurely knowing, Ralph is much more boyish. He is virtuous like his half brother, believes in the right things and does the best he knows how, but he is a boy. This makes sense since he's a lordling. It also makes sense because he is strongly influenced by his mother's heritage. Caitlyn is a Tully and that's different than being a Stark. The Tullys live by the water in the middle of the kingdom where it's neither to hot nor too cold, they are gracious and lively, in some ways more the opposite of Stark than the Dornish in the South, whose climate is rought like the Stark's though in a different way. It is important to note that Robb is crowned King of the North in Riverrun, his mother's homeland, and not in the north proper at Winterfell. Things are not so heavy in Riverrun as in Winterfell, they are not responsible for any border of Westernos. Regardless, Robb is good but he doesn't see some things and expects the rest of the world to be good too. Not to lay all this on his mother though, Ned Stark also died because of his goodness and faith. So it isn't suprising that Robb would think to marry for love and expect everyone else to respect that. He smiles and apologizes and expects that the Freys will act how he would in their position, partly because he is young, and partly because he is so good hearted that he doesn't recognize the potential for evil in others. Robb's death hit me hard, possibly hardest of any in the series. He was so young and beautiful and good and I had planned for him to marry Dany and thus make it possible for both the Starks and Targaryens to win. At the same time, Robb is not a particularly interesting character, as far as I remember we never get a chapter from his perspective even.
Sansa Stark
In A Game of Thrones, Sansa is probably the most annoying character in the entire book. I hated her a lot. She's shallow and stupid and she is responsible for her father's death at least partly. Her naming her wolf "Lady" sort of describes exactly how much she lacked originality. She was taken in by the outward appearance of the Lannisters and their golden image. However, she has developed more than any of the other Stark children and now she is my favorite of the legitable Starks. It is too bad she is unlikely to live considering that her wolf was killed in book 1. Of course, the old Sansa is dead in a sense. She has lost her identity for the most part becoming Alayne Stone, the bastard daughter of Petyr Baelish who has always been in love with her mother. It is interesting to note that when I actually start to like Sansa she becomes a bastard child, losing her name and becoming her environment... like Jon. Sansa became sympathetic when she started to realize the true nature of the Lannisters, when Joffrey humiliated her, when she began to be nicer to those she had scorned. When her story really becomes most compelling though, at least for me, is when she falls into the trap of Petyr. Sansa looks like her mother, and we imagine that probably much of her idealism about court and princes is reminiscent of what Caitlyn might have been like as a girl. The thing with Petyr is comflicting because he is psychotic and ruthless and wants to have Sansa in a sexual sense, but he also is the one person who can be trusted to protect her from the rest of the dangers she faces. Petyr's lust is all the more disturbing because, while half the time he essentially sees her as Caitlyn, the other half he sort of fantasizes that Sansa is he and Caitlyn's daughter. Of course Petyr's desire for Caitlyn was always borderline incestuous because he was her foster brother. I have to say that I like Sansa as Alayne though, she's competant and useful. I have to attribute at least past of that to the fact that the Eyrie is in th North. As I discussed with Jon, Stark power is bound to a geographic location and we can see that by how terribly wrong things go for Sansa when she goes south to King's Landing, and the way her life becomes more bearable when she goes North again. Considering that Arya, also is experimenting with identity, I think that whether being a Stark is an external of internal thing is very important. Possibly it also shows the difference in the two girls nature in the way that Sansa becomes Alayne but Arya can never really stop being Arya. Regardless, from the looks of things as of Feast for Crows, it seems that Alayne is soon to become Sansa again, and I hope she survives it, although it seems unlikely.
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no subject
Date: 2006-03-17 04:22 am (UTC)He smiles and apologizes and expects that the Freys will act how he would in their position, partly because he is young, and partly because he is so good hearted that he doesn't recognize the potential for evil in others.
YES. He's his father's son in that -- Ned seems to believe that everyone is honourable just because he is, and that kills him. And Robb's death hit me hard too. The entire Red Wedding sequence ripped me up, just because it was just the sort of thing I should have expected from the Freys, but I didn't see it coming at all. I think Robb's optimism affected me temporarily.
And really good points about Sansa. That was one thing I really found interesting in AFfC, that she no longer seems to think of herself as Sansa Stark, but as Alayne Stone. Which must make the weird quasi-sexual tension between her and Petyr even more disturbing to her. That *is* interesting in light of what little we know of Catelyn when she was younger. I get the impression that Lysa was the more sexual of the two, and Catelyn the more proper (giving her favour to Brandon instead of Petyr, etc). She's definitely grown on me in this latest book, just because we seem to see her coming into her own a bit more. Possibly as a surrogate version of Catelyn, since Catelyn is dead?
no subject
Date: 2006-03-17 04:33 pm (UTC)Yes, when Sansa's chapters become "Alayne's" instead I was immediately in love with the symbolicness. I love how Sansa knows that Petyr feels towards her is wrong, but she has enough sensibleness, rahther than unbent honor, to realize that making a scene is utterly stupid. I also love how Sansa seems to be almost falling in love with Petyr during the latest book. It's so creepy and yet so understandable. Sansa IS like Catelyn I think. She is the weakest as far as being a Stark, but she's bendable like a reed... like a Tully. I always sort of gathered that Lysa was more sexual, because she was more emotional and less restrained. Catelyn is not particularly sentimental really. It's not that she's a cold hearted bitch (well at least when she's alive), but she (like Sansa) generally thinks about what is possible and not always so much about what is absolutely right. She's flexible... which I think is probably supposed to be a Tully trait just like absolutes are a Stark one. If Lysa had been married to Ned she would never have adjusted as well as Catelyn... we see that she hasn't. Sansa is still young and impressionable, and she's not overly clever, but she's already more what Cersei wants to be than Cersei herself will ever be.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-17 05:29 pm (UTC)I also love how Sansa seems to be almost falling in love with Petyr during the latest book. It's so creepy and yet so understandable.
Completely. Petyr is one of the few people willing to protect her as much for who she is as for what her name means. Even though he really seems to be trying to reclaim his lost love for Catelyn while he's at it. That, and Petyr did conceive of that extremely complicated plan to get her out of King's Landing, which nobody else managed to do. I think that gets him points in her book. He's one of the few men able to protect her since Ned died, and I think Sansa knows how helpless she really is, and that's why she's unwilling to try and fight back -- as Arya did -- or even to work within the system -- as Cersei tries to do and fails spectacularly because she tries far too hard. And don't get me started on Cersei, and how proud I was of Jaime when he resisted her. ;)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-17 05:33 pm (UTC)Sansa knows how helpless she really is\
Yes. That is part of why I really care about her now. Even though everything has gone wrong for them, the other Starks never really seemed to accept this fact. Which gets me into why I want to smack Arya...
no subject
Date: 2006-03-17 06:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-17 06:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-18 12:37 am (UTC)Of course, I really couldn't stand Catelyn (see my LJ on that point) partly because of her own helplessness. I spent a great deal of time reading her chapters and being so very annoyed from the time of Bran's fall onward. She flits around from one not-particularly-well-thoughtout decision to the next without any real idea of what she's doing. She blames Lysa for losing Tyrion, but doesn't really consider how much better off she would have been if she hadn't illegally taken him captive in the first place.
*takes deep breath, ends rant.*
Regardless, of all the children, Arya and Jon strike me - and not just physically - of being the most Stark. Bran does get the runner-up position, partly due to the fact that he can't function on the same level as the other two. They take the thankless jobs and do them because they need doing.
Yes, I worry about Arya's streak of vengeance, and I do anticipate her running even more wild, like Nymeria. But Nymeria runs with a pack at her back, and I'm pretty sure that Arya's going to wind up with one of her own.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 04:25 pm (UTC)See I don't see Arya that way at all.
I do see wihat you are saying though, and Catelyn did frusterate me a lot too.
Also we haven't really seen much of Bran or Rickon for most of the book (and Rickon was really just a baby) so, although I know Martin has big plans for Bran, I feel it's really hard to judge them the same way as charaxters we've seen more of
no subject
Date: 2006-03-18 03:57 am (UTC)It's also particularly effective when the two of Ned's "false" children - Jon and Theon - feel true affection for Robb, who always treated them like his own brothers (which in a sense they are).
Also showcases the contrast between true nobility - Robb's treatment of Jon - versus Sansa's "propriety" in at least the first of the novels - where she constantly refers to him as "My bastard half-brother." It's very promising that Sansa yearns to see Jon again when word of him reaches her in AFfC.
Having heard GRRM speak at Boskone, I can't get it out of my head that Sansa is his homage to the little league player he once was - it always happened in the movies, why can't he hit a home run in the bottom of the ninth with bases loaded? Likewise, it always happens in the stories, why can't she marry a shining prince who would die for her?
For some reason, while I have a lot of thoughts and suppositions about Jon, they're just refusing to shape themselves into something that sticks. Bloody thoughts. ;P
no subject
Date: 2006-03-20 04:32 pm (UTC)That's how I feel about my ASoIaF thoughts in general. They are unruly and hard to pin down into managable pieces and solid words.